B‘H

The following is a transcript of a conversation between Reb Zalman and Rabbi Yosef Yitzchak (YY) Jacobson, (editor-in-chief of the The Algemeiner Journal), which occurred on November 24, 2007  (15 Kislev, 5768). (Edited by Gabbai Seth Fishman.)

Reb Zalman:

“Here’s the story: There was such a remarkable article by Hillel Zeitlin, ‘Vos is Chabad’ / ‘What’s Chabad about’? You could see from there how he, in his day, was talking about the ruchnius / spirit of Chabad.

“I miss this, nowadays, — when I encounter [with them] — in the Shlichim / Chabad emissaries. Every once in a while, some of the young Shlichim come by here and chap a shmues / grab a conversation with me. Officially, the excuse is [that] they want to see what s’forim / books I have or to talk with me about what it was like in those old days. But what they really want is – to find a sympathetic ear through which they might express conflicts and doubts. They also want to find out how to make their davvenen / prayer more real.

I found, when I was in Australia, that they’re all managers. They’re sort of franchise people where they are. There is very little that is happening in hisbonenus / contemplation and ruchnius / spirituality. They have a very low ceiling. That’s what I’m concerned about, that’s what I wanted to shmues / discuss with you.

“Have you been able to reach your brother or not?”

Rabbi YY Jacobson:

“I couldn’t, I tried.”

Reb Zalman:

“Nish geferlich / it’s not so bad; you’ll give over to him.”

Rabbi YY Jacobson:

“I’m sorry, I wanted him to be in on the conversation.”

Reb Zalman:

“So what’s happening? (You’re close by to 770 in New York; you see what’s going on.)

For instance, I was in Melbourne and I asked [if they would show me around] and, they did. And there’s a yeshiva / school for boys and a kollel / school for men. I came to the beis medrash / house of study of the kollel and I asked who is the mashpia / the one who provides spiritual direction for the students. They said they don’t have a mashpia. So vaksen yunge leit / raising the boys missing something essential for the yoshvei ohel / serious students.

“When you look at the way the Alter Rebbe / Reb Schneur Zalman of Liadi was writing about such things in the letters, about yoshvei ohel and what they have to do with their davvenen, etc. — I didn’t have the sense that any of that was happening there.”

Rabbi YY Jacobson:

“The way I see it, there’s two elements. First of all, I don’t feel that Chabad has, at the moment, that many individuals who have the ability to take chassidus / esoteric teachings, to take the maamorim / esoteric discourses and to apply  them in contemporary terms [so] that the 21st century teenager, or young man, or woman, can really get excited about it. They learn chassidus in the yeshivah, they learn the kontreisim / shorter articles, the maamorim / longer pieces, etc., but if you ask most eighteen or nineteen year olds, ‘Are you excited about such and such maamar?’, they say, ‘What’s there to be excited about? It doesn’t talk to me.’ I don’t think, on their own, they could find anything enthusiastic, inspiring or, certainly, overwhelming to actually spend time every day and davven with it or think about it. That’s number one.

“Number two — I don’t know if this is right — but it seems to me [from] what they share with me [that] avodah pnimis / the chabad way of serving with one’s inner self doesn’t seem to talk to them.

“I guess [that] in the fast-paced world that we live in, in a way, Jewish institutional life has become powerful. Shuls and schools and Chabad centers have big buildings. It’s not any more [that they have a] Reb Shmuel Levitan, a Reb Yisroel Jacobson sitting around a table with a few chevre and having a farbrengen / gathering with singing and giving over of hasidus.

“People say about Zionism that the success of Zionism also undermined it. In the fifties, when nobody had money or homes and people were living in huts, there was a passion that fueled the new State of Israel. But today, the passion that used to fuel Zionism is not there.

“It could be [that with] the international success of Chabad (as far as infrastructure is concerned), the Kelim / vessels became so big and the Or / light was dimmed (in the sense that people are very motivated by action and by expansion and by institutionalized life), [so] one does not recognize the interest and even the yearning for depth, for existential questions. The ideas that perturbed the Alter Rebbe / Reb Schneur Zalman or the Frierdiger Rebbe / Reb Yosef Yitzchak Schneerson or the Rebbe Rashab / Reb Sholom Dovber Schneerson or the Maggid / Reb Yosef – it doesn’t seem to perturb them, [questions like these:]

• ‘Lomoh yordo haneshomo lemato?’ / ‘Why does the supernal soul descend to this plane?’
• ‘What’s the point of existence?’
• ‘Who is God?’
• ‘Do I have a relationship with God? I’m not sure about that, because Leiv Yisroel / jewish heart is awake, a neshomo iz a neshomo / soul is a soul.”

Reb Zalman:

“Right, Ani Y’shenah v’libbi er / I sleep but my heart is awake – but I miss the nochach pnei Hashem / being in the presence of God.”

Rabbi YY Jacobson:

“The nochach pnei Hashem / being in the presence of God, the experience [doesn’t seem to perturb them (if they are not feeling it) as it did in earlier times]. They chap davvenen / grab an opportunity to pray for good things: They have meetings, they have to raise money; they have to create centers; they have big mortgages and big budgets.

“They do a lot of great work in that sense, but spirituality requires time. It’s like martial art: You can’t become a black belt [without putting in the time, and similarly,] you can’t become an oved / servant of Hashem, have ruchnius / spirit… It takes time, hours and hours of discipline and hisbonenus / contemplation.

“The Bratzlaver‘s, they spend time in their own way; the Hindus, they spend time; in the Orthodox world they learn the Art Scroll gemara / Talmud tractate: But spending time with their souls? It’s not a prevalent art in Chabad or among other frum / observant Jews.”

Reb Zalman:

“So let me raise a question: Instead of [our] hisbonenus / contemplation on the matzav / situation as it is, who, mi vami / who and who of the people today would like to find a way in which the findings of depth psychology and the transformational methods that are available could be blended with the avodah / way of serving?

My son and I were learning Kuntres Avodah – he is in Eretz Ysroel and, we do it by Skype and, we were seeing each other and learning. I had the feeling that this was so far away from what his inyan is / i.e. what he is about. So after a while we gave up and we started to talk a little more about how to do cheshbon hanefesh / an accounting of one’s soul (self-reflection) and hachonos / preparations with davvenen.

“My question is, who, today, is concerned enough so we could have, off the record, [some giving over from me to some of the shlichim despite that] I know I’m not [considered] kosher in certain areas and in certain regions?

“I’m concerned. Im elech v’eneni / if I go and am gone there should be some people who are shayach / good candidates to take [on] basic things about teaching [other] people about creating inner space and, in that inner space and time, to [know how to] transact what they need to. Do you know of anybody who is shayach / a good candidate to that?”

Rabbi YY Jacobson:

“Individually I know people who are thirsty for it. They always say, ‘How does one translate chassidus / contemplative teachings [into] contemporary?’ There’s very little literature of that nature.”

Reb Zalman:

“Look at what you and your brother are doing. I remember that first book that came out [which said] that even one who is not from the bnei bris / even one who is not jewish could read that and be enthused, [saying] ‘Oh! That Lubavitcher Rebbe is really great!’ What was happening [was that] your brother was mafshit / peeling off from the osios / letters in books in such a way that the spiritual and inspiring core was available.”

Rabbi YY Jacobson:

“What do you feel about this from your experience?”

Reb Zalman:

“Well, when I’m working with my people then I see that the issue of the four worlds is important to them.

“So we have spent some time with birchos hashachar / dawn blessings and body stuff. And we spent time with psukey d’zimra / verses of song and really take…  [How shall I say?] Tov m’at bchavono milharbos shelo bchavono / it’s better [to davven] a little with intention than to davven a lot without it. To really sing one of them, of the psalms.

“[Check out] the translation I’ve done of t’hilim / Psalms and for my people who can’t even read Hebrew. I’ve given them a daily siddur, I call it yedaber pi / my mouth will speak — Chabad’s is tehilas Hashem / the praise of Hashem and mine is yedaber pi / my mouth will speak— So that they should be able to say something that comes from their hearts.

“So with our chevre / community, I’m quite happy that it’s in good hands. We have a lev shomea / spiritual direction group, we have spiritual direction happening.

“This is all for people who come from outside [of frum]. The people who had learned Torah in yeshives before are sort of the cadre of the people who work with me, my helpers. But the people who come from the outside…

“I remember having a shmues / long talk once with Moishele Feller, and he said, ‘Zalman, you want to teach people how to have ahavah b’ta’anugim / love with delights in one easy lesson.’ And I said, ‘You’re darn tootin!’

“What happens is, from the beis medrash / house of study on we want people to do tshuva tato’e / regret for wrongdoing first, but that’s not what connects [them to] the tshuva illlaha / returning to God in a deeper way, to be able to say, va’ani kirvas Elohim li tov / as for me, God’s nearness is working for me. (If you get a chance, I published a book in Israel called Kirvat Elokim / God’s nearness for sabras / native Israeli’s. If you can’t get it, I’ll send you a copy. Let me know. See if you can get it from Yediot Acharonot.)”

Rabbi YY Jacobson:

“I wrote you in the email [that] I can’t thank you enough for the two cassettes you sent me. They were so enjoyable, I listened to them over and over again. One was a presentation you did together with Reb Shloimele, / Shlomo Carlebach that was L’eile ul’eile / beyond the beyond [very holy] and one was your private intimate talk with your own chevre / community about the future, the various paradigms. They were both extraordinarily moving, informative and also inspiring. So a groissen yasher koiach / an enthusiastic ‘job well-done’.”

Reb Zalman:

“So bruchim tih’yu / may you be blessed. That’s the reason, I feel, when people ask me am I broigez / angry with Chabad, I say, ‘I graduated. It’s my alma mater.’

“If there is one thing I can do before I leave, I would like to be able to talk to some of the people. Imagine if there were somebody in Morristown who could be a mashpia / spiritual guide or mashgiach / halachic overseer: If they could come out and be here for two or three days and we could work through a few things and give them [things] to understand. And even before they come, I’d like them to read some of the stuff as preparation so they would understand what I’m  going to do. (I don’t want to have to get into vikuchim / controversies with them about 5767 years or something like this, or whether the Rebbe was Mashiach or not.)”

Rabbi YY Jacobson:

“Yes, of course. That’s an interesting idea but I don’t have to tell you that you have to have people who are open to it.”

Reb Zalman:

“That’s my point. You remember Shneur Zalman Stern? He is now in California doing business, but he was ben zikunim / possessing of wisdom of Jacobson. Jakey really hot areingelegt / lay deeply in him a sach / teaching on hisbonenus / meditation and he wrote a very nice article about how to do that.

“So I think I sent you a little booklet called “Gate to the Heart“. If not, I’ll send it again and one called Yishm’ru Da’at / Minding Awareness. And if you can’t get the Kirvat Elokim book I’ll send you that too. And have you seen Jewish with Feeling?”

Rabbi YY Jacobson:

“I read that, and it was extraordinary and you also sent us stories that were gevaldig / impactful. What about the elements [within Chabad]… I’m just thinking about the resistance to you. I don’t have to tell you that Reb Zalman Schachter is quite controversial in some circles.”

Reb Zalman:

“‘Treife‘ / ‘Unkosher.’ You can say. It’s OK”

Rabbi YY Jacobson:

“Treife is on many different levels.”

Reb Zalman:

“So never mind. I understand what the situation is.

“So sometimes there is an issue that can be done b’ilum hashem / anonymously. I don’t mind if some of the resources that I created can be passed on b’ilum hashem. That’s not the point.

“You see, the issue is this: Have you been reading lately a magazine article about the brain and they were talking about the mirror neurons [and] the issue [they raise] about experience? When I went and stood around the tisch / table (chasidic gathering) of the Rebbe Rayatz / Yosef Yitzchak Schneerson and it was hard for him to express things because his mouth was working very hard to talk, so we were listening very carefully. But the mirror neurons that were happening – I was attuning to him so much because otherwise I wouldn’t have been able to understand it. I had to make myself very gamish, very soft, to be able to have him imprint on me. So that’s the way I attuned to him.

“My sense is that the issue having to do with davvening and nigunim / wordless melodies, etc, they need attunement. It’s almost like saying you need to tune one violin from the oboe. So if there were some people who were daring and they could see themselves willing to come and learn some practices gesunterheit / I wish them well.”

Rabbi YY Jacobson:

“Let me ask you a question. What keeps you so inspired after so many years? You don’t get bored of it? Pardon me for asking.”

Reb Zalman:

“It’s a very good question. I tell you what, Heint in der fri / back when I’m free [I study], the perek Tanya is perek chof  / section twenty and it’s the yahrzeit of the Sfas Emes, so that’s what I’m doing. This is my morning and after I’m done with my morning I go and do my work, which at this point is to take what I’ve written in the past and get it ready for my archives and some of it for publication.

“But you and I are talking right now, and it’s not just the two of us. When you work on shivisi / “I have set [God before me]” and nochach pnei Hashem / being in God’s presence, it’s not shayach / likely to be bored.”

Rabbi YY Jacobson:

“I don’t know but I hear.”

Reb Zalman:

(laughs) “Alright”

Rabbi YY Jacobson:

“No, personally I read Tanya page chof. And I ask myself – maybe it’s a chutzpedicke / brash question but I want to be honest. Didn’t the Alter Rebbe get bored of repeating the same thing over and over again, that kula kamei klo choshiv / everything seems of no importance and our egos are a delusion and we exist and bitul oilam / a world that is null and void. I open a New York Times and I see there is so much going on with Iraq and the UN, and a groisse veldt / wide world with art and culture and rock music and business and money. And I wonder, a person like the Alter Rebbe who is so brilliant, so stimulating and creative and so deep – what got him so excited about repeating these mantras again and again.”

Reb Zalman:

“Well two things: one was his great compassion that he had for people. Take a look, Reb Baruch [of Medzhybizh] didn’t have compassion for people. Reb Baruch wanted to be the knacker / talker, l’mehevey ano paqido bgoy tzaddikayo / that I would be numbered among the righteous, but the Alter Rebbe had this great compassion and at the end, he said nefesh shefela / lowly life, oy what was this all about? Baruch Hashem / thank God I’m going to be able to lay down the burden and I’ll say ich vill nisht dein oilam habo / I don’t want Your next world, ich vill nur Dir allein / I only want Thee. So he was looking for that.

“But when sometimes on Shabes morning, I go over to Yisroel Rosenkrantz, (he’s one of the people who is here in business but he learned in Morristown and he’s a musmach / ordained Rabbi, a wonderful young man, and his wife Rochel is really a meivinah / an expert on chassidus), so we go and learn together.

“Every once in a while, when we learn Likutei Torah, the Alter Rebbe goes into a line which osios / letters keep on coming (lengthy). Leys atar panuy minieh / there is no place devoid of Your presence etc., [including] the whole line. Then I stop and I say, ‘Do you understand what’s going on?’ He’s talking to the people and at that time he isn’t just giving ideas, he’s in touch with the reality he is talking about. As he was doing in davvenen, he’s reaching those regions and giving it over. And I can imagine a Reb Zalman Zezmer tuning in and the Mitteler Rebbe. I’m allowing my imagination to go with that.

“I think that’s what’s lacking. The mashpi’im don’t invite the talmidim to use their chush hatziyur / imaginal faculties, when the Rebbe was talking about chush hatziur, he wants to [invite them] and the ba’al hashmue / the thing reported to come alive in the person who remembers that and so forth. I find that there’s no imagination connected with today’s learning so there is an absence of intuition and emotion.

“For example, when I’m talking to my people, I’m talking about ofanim / angels (wheels). Can you imagine who the ofanim are in olam ha’assiyah / the world of Assiyah? They’re the planets. And the chayos ha-kodesh / angels (holy animals) are the stars, the signs of the zodiac. And who are the s’rofim / angels (seraphs), they are the galaxies. Adon olam asher malach b’terem kol yetzir nivro / Lord of the universe who reigned before all that came forth was created. Think what it was like before the Big Bang. V’acharei kichlos hakol / and after all is done, after the last black hole. L’eis na’aso b’cheftzo kol / from the time all was made according to His wishes– the present of the Ribono shel Oilam / master of the worlds is from the Big Bang to the last black hole. Let your mind go into that place of l’eis na’aso b’cheftzo kol azai melech shmo nikro / from the time all was made according to His wishes His name is called King.

“So the imagination allows for that and I find that this is what’s absent. What I’m saying, I’m laying this out for you, that if there would be shayach / good candidates in some people, they don’t even have to come here. I could work with them on Skype and we would be able to see each other and go into some depth and I can show them how to get inside their inner space.”

Rabbi YY Jacobson:

“It’s a good idea. We desperately need it. There’s also another issue. I want to hear your opinion about that. You understand it much better than I do because I was born in 1972, so I didn’t see the transition. The last Rebbe turned Lubavitsch into –“

Reb Zalman:

“An enterprise”

Rabbi YY Jacobson:

“Very focused on activism, creating schools, and mikvahs and shuls  — with a fire burning and to educate yiddishe kinder / Jewish children and he developed this ethic. And this world is not a perfect world. Ein sholem le’echod / a complete unity.

“My question is, if, perhaps, intentionally or unintentionally, unlike the Frierdike Rebbe’s sichot / talks which are full of nostalgia and full of chush hatziur / visualizations and full of stories of Lubavitsch — From Reb Isaak Homiler to the Rebbeim —  to them but with the rebbe  RM”M / Reb Menachem Mendel, there’s almost no nostalgia.”

Reb Zalman:

“Remember when Rebbetsin Mussia said to him, ‘Why don’t you sing the old niggunim?’, and he said, ‘What do you want me to do? Cry in front of my Chassidim?’ He was uforatsto / spreading Yiddishkeit outwards.

I want to say that the niggunim suffered a lot. There are very few people who sing niggunim that lift you up. One of the things that’s very, very clear: if there aren’t any children in a family there is an absence of the manifested affect… I told you about when I saw the Rebbe after the histalkus / passing [of Reb Yosef Yitzchak].”

Rabbi YY Jacobson:

“When you asked for three things, yes.”

Reb Zalman:

“So if he doesn’t have any children, what’s shayach / one appropriately to do [if one happens to be Rebbe]? He was never in a situation where he would glett the kopf fun a kind / pat the head of a child and do the same thing with a kiss transformed in a maamar / teaching like Rebbe Rashab / Reb DovBer with [his child] Rebbe Rayatz / Reb Yosef Yitzchak. These things that had to do with heart weren’t there, but he was totally an apparatchik / loyal follower, as it were, of the Frierdicke Rebbe.

So he created, therefore, an enterprise that took charisma and institutionalized it and, now there are Chabad houses. If Yeshiva University would have done that, Chabad would have been able to do the ruchnius / spiritual aspects, but there was nobody else. Everyone [else] was saying, “Ich hob schon glatt kosher fleish / I already have glatt kosher meat, a gute miqveh / a good mikvah,” so they weren’t ready to do anything for anybody else in outreach. I remember what it was like when I first went to New Haven to start a yeshiva there. In New York, anything that was out of town was like in Siberia.

“So that’s really the issue, that he had to do what he had to do. But I would have wanted to see that he would take, lomir zogen / let’s say, a Reb Yoel Kahn, Reb Adin Steinzalz, and Reb Yitzchak Ginsburg, and all these people who are shayach / good candidates to a little bit deeper, and spent time with them to make rebbes.

“But when I look at the Belzer, he’s a manager — a big enterprise, but he’s a manager. The people who do nostalgia in the little claisele / house of worship, Vishnitz etc., — not much is happening there. The new Bobover has his hands full with a battle. I once had a shmues / discussion wth the Munkatsher and asked him … “You were born here, were raised here, you played stick ball etc. I’d like to send some people to you. And he said, ‘I can’t handle that.’ Why? ‘Because my people who came here after the concentration camps spent the time they should have been in yeshivas, [being] (they were) in the camps. So I have to work with them.’

“But there is nobody who is doing that outreach that Chabad does. Yeshiva University didn’t do it, so Chabad had to do it. So what happened is that I would call Chabad today the Chodakov-ization of Chabad.” [NOTE: A reference to Chaim Mordechai Aizik Chodakov, Reb Menachem Mendel’s chief-of-staff]

Rabbi YY Jacobson:

“Did you get along with Chodakov?”

Reb Zalman:

“Let me go back. Chodakov was… I had a crush on him. What I mean by that, he was teaching Chovos Halevavos / obligations of the heart Wednesday nights and I was still working with my parents at this point, setting up parnoso / ways to make money. But I so loved him and the way he was teaching. When I had the first time when I was doing a vidui dvorim …talmid chochom / verbal confession of an obedient student, how to handle my chatas n’urim / young urges (sins), I came to him because I trusted him. He was very good.

“Then he became chief of staff. One night I was waiting for the Rebbe to finish yechidus / meetings to walk him home. So Chodakov saw me waiting there and that I wanted to walk the Rebbe home to President Street, he gave me such a misheberach / dressing down. Later on, when I didn’t want to go to the Colisseum and to do all the external things, he got broigez / upset with me. So that’s where it was with Chodakov.”

Rabbi YY Jacobson:

“Do you see any movement today or any mainstream personality in the Jewish world that is giving people real ruchnius / spirituality, depth, perspective, that is continuing the flame in a real way besides institutionalized?”

Reb Zalman:

“I’m looking … I’ve been in my claisele / little house of worship so I don’t know what tut sich / is going on. I see that Eli Wiesel has moiré / running interference for Achmadinijad right now. And it’s true. Somebody has to mind the store and he’s doing that. But Y– G– is not into that, he has a very low ceiling. And when I look at I– K–, he has a lot of flair but also a low ceiling. He sees himself more than he sees the other person. So I don’t know who is around. I don’t know and it’s sad.

“But I still feel that in Eretz Yisroel there is some ferment, but again everybody is looking over his right shoulder because people claim nisht azoi is haderech / the right path is not like this.

“They are driving by the rear view mirror. They all want to get it back to restoration. And restoration doesn’t work any more.”

Rabbi YY Jacobson:

“But people are asking the question that most people don’t even know how to ask. But I think that in the subconscious of Jews, this is a question that has to be articulated. I am wondering what a person like you with this context would say about it.

“I think people feel deep down that with all the glamour and success and prosperity, the world might be closing in on the Jewish people. I don’t mean in the sense of Achmadinijad, but for example in Israel, the two main goals of Zionism, a) to create a place where people feel secure and have their fate in their own hands; and b) to normalize the Jewish people k’chol hagoyim beis Yisroel / house of Israel, just like any other nation, Herzl  and Nordau‘s dreams. Both of them have not been fulfilled. In the summer, a politician tells me in New Jersey, Jews are much safer [in the US] than in Israel. As far as normalization, the State of Israel has not created normalization in the Jewish State.

“In fact, Israel is still singled out constantly in an extraordinary way l’toiv / as being good and b’ikar l’mutov / as a primary source of good. Even here in America where everything is so successful, I think deep down a lot of Jews feel it’s an eggshell without an egg. It’s greisse / big dinners and greisse binyonim / big buildings and greisse / big institutions but I think deep down Jews are asking:

• Where are we going?
• What is in our future?
• What does God want from us?
• Are we the chosen people?
• Is Mashiach / Mossiah coming, is this real?
• Is the objective just we should learn daf yomi / daily talmud study, have nice schools, heisse mikvahs / warm mikvahs and good kosher restaurants?
• Where is really Jewish destiny?
• Who is creating Jewish destiny?’

Reb Zalman:

“So the answer to this one is, you’re right. This is where hisoynenus – self pity comes. All these things you’re saying are really right, that people feel that there is no spine, no heart, there is nothing, [that] all that we can do is to protect the form.”

Rabbi YY Jacobson:

“And make believe that’s it’s revolutionary.”

Reb Zalman:

“Don’t forget that it’s sixty years after the Holocaust. We had to rebuild the infrastructure. But then people got so happy about building the infrastructure that they forgot about the tochen / content.

“Hear me out for a minute: There is an issue of a cholem / dream. The cholem, (or in contemporary language, the Jewish myth), at this point, is empty. We don’t understand where we fit in after paradigm shift and that’s really what I’ve been working on, to say: ‘Yes! Really we do have a future, amidst all the other people in the world; all the other religions.’ We have to be the healthiest Jews we can be and if we do that we’ll help the future. But it’s also very, very possible that pollution and global warming and all these big issues are going to overwhelm us in the end and we won’t have anything left.

“So the big question is: Who are the dreamers? There is no living midrash today.

“That’s where I feel the necessity of doing the work. It can’t come when people sit down and say we are going to create midrash. Because then it comes from the cortex and it doesn’t come from the deeper layers of the psyche.

“That’s the reason why I feel that I come back to this first thing, that there have to be some people in chassidus who are beginning to create the transferability.

“I’ll give you an example: The Maggid is teaching. Along comes the mal’ach, [his son]. Have you ever looked at the — the sefer of the mal’ach. He talks not about the sfiros / divine attributes but about the maskil / intellectual  and kadmus haseichel / antecedents of intellect, etc. So they were going into very deep regions inside and from those deep regions it is shayach / bringing into context when, [e.g.,] the Alter Rebbe is giving a bagel with beer in atzilus.

“So that was a remarkable thing. They went into deep places experientially. That’s what I’m saying.

“If we could get a small cadre to get into the experiential stuff of chassidus, and in accordance with an update of that, so that the reality maps that are now coming from cosmology [are integrated, it would be k’dai / warranted. E.g.,] I don’t know whether you’ve read anything by Ken Wilber or by Irwin Laszlo or Ray Kurzweil. These are the people who today are the growing edge of consciousness. That’s what we need to integrate our yiddishkeit with, because if not, yiddishkeit will be untershtellig / irrelevant. Everybody else will have passed it and we [will] become a fossil.”

Rabbi YY Jacobson:

“Which school in Jewish thought can carry that flag? … The world is isolated. The modern world is not spiritually stimulated.”

Reb Zalman:

“A long time ago I wanted … (the Rebbe had given me an OK on that) … to get a job at either Stern College for Women or at JTS (Jewish Theological Seminary). So I had gone to JTS and I did a wonderful Shabbes there, and for Mincha / afternoon service, I’m leading the davvening, and I come to “Thou are One and Thy name is One” (Z sings) and it turned out that Finkelstein got broiges / angry that I used English there. And Lieberman was also there.

“And they asked me, why did I do such a thing? And I said, these people are students and they are going to conduct services and they are going to do it for the burgs and nobody is going to be standing nochach pnei Hashem / being in God’s presence and really davven without the English that they’re going to [have to] do.

“And they couldn’t hear it.

“Or when Belkin interviewed me for Stern College — I wanted to be the spiritual director of Stern College. He asked me what I would do and I said I’d fire the ten boys that come from Yeshiva University who make a minyan and have the girls lead the davvenen themselves. I’d show the girls how to put on T’fillin.

“So he says, what  for? So I gave him a teretz / an answer, for the bentshlicht / making it lighter and easier to pray.

“And I said, the father is going to go to work early in the morning and if the mother doesn’t know how to put on T’fillin then she can’t supervise the boys who aren’t going to learn to do it every day. So she can supervise it. (It’s so stupid that I had to say it this way. But I don’t see [the point of] that world [outlook] and they only want to reinforce what they have.)

“When I was once talking to Yitz Greenberg when he was interviewing me for Steinhart, I said what you guys are doing is a heart and lung machine for a person who is brain dead.”

Rabbi YY Jacobson:

(Loud laugh) “Wow, what did he say?”

Reb Zalman:

“I was saying to him, what you need to do is create a curriculum for lamed vovniks / Yiddishkeit’s visionaries and leaders in 25 years from now. How are we going to hothouse rebbes and tzadikim / pure souls if we don’t have a connection to hechere / higher worlds. The sof / result is going to be that we’ll die like a dry tree.

“So that’s why I come back to you and say what can we do a little bit for Chabad. Then, to create the people who will learn how to dream again, so the new midrash can come.

“There has to be an understanding among the erliche yidden / fair and honest Jews what’s klal Yisroel / totality of Jews. Klal Yisroel im gefen mimitzrayim tasiyah / totality of Jews with ‘You uprooted a vine from Egypt’ — remember that wonderful maamar? There are the people in the center and there are people in the periphery but we are all part of the same thing. It’s an organismic connection. So there are some people who are the artistic people: Look what Matisyahu does. (I hate his music, I can’t stand it, but my son is crazy about it, he loves it.)

“I understand that you have to bring… was heist a rebbe / what makes a rebbe a rebbe? A rebbe [is one] who teaches the chassidus  his people need to hear. Remember that. So you need niggunim for this time too.

But the [niggunim for this time] are not going to come out from the center. There’s a lot of yeshiva rock around and it’s boring. It’s very predictable.”

Rabbi YY Jacobson:

“Was tut men mit timtum halev? / What about the effect of dulling the heart of a Jew who does not follow halachah. There’s a timtum halev / non-adherence in the Jewish world.”

[NOTE: I.e. how do we deal with klal Yisrael dulling Yiddishkeit in general, influencing people to be less observant.]

Reb Zalman:

“So I say that this can be removed [but] not in the city. For this you need retreat houses where you take people.

“What were the summer camps? Gan Yisroel. I remember sending one of my kids to Gan Yisroel and he came back with we need Mashiach now. So gesundterheit / a blessing that they who run this camp should be well.. But to wake him up in the morning, like I used to do at Camp Ramah, take them up, before the sunrise, to a mountain that looks over to mizrach / east, and watch for the sunrise and then to see that the davvenen that comes: hame’ir laaretz b’rachamim um’chadesh b’kol yom tomid ma’aseh breshis / God lights up the land in mercy and renews every day continually the work of creation. If you see that in reality…

“You need to have people have experiential things. That would bring it back.”

Rabbi YY Jacobson:

“I want to ask you a daring question. Not with everyone one can speak so openly. Two questions:

“With your hand on your heart, if the Jewish people would disappear today, what would… (Of course the tragedy of the Jewish people not being here, is a tragedy.) But as far as historical process of humanity, of civilization [goes], would there be anything missing?

“Jonathan Sachs, the chief rabbi of Britain loves writing and speaking about how Judaism introduced civility and democracy and freedom and there’s nothing above the law. And all these chevre / Jews… John Adams has this letter how the Jews introduced morality and all that. But we already introduced these things. We have the United States that offers democracy, and many other countries.

“From the historical global process of humanity, what would the world be missing?”

Reb Zalman:

“Well, first of all, as you see in my writing I keep talking about commodity time and organismic time. The world at this point has gone into commodity time completely.”

(end of side one of transcription tape. NOTE: Something is skipped)

Reb Zalman:

“I feel at this point I’m very tired. Tired from shleppen dem vogen / dragging the cart.

“Sometimes it looks to me that there isn’t going to be much of a future. And I can also get into my own sense of oy gevalt, vos vird sein / Alas, what will be?

“But then, there is an opportunity to talk with someone like you. Just this morning I was talking to somebody about getting a sequel to Paradigm Shift. So I have work to do and that’s what keeps me going.”

Do you remember di zlu-zhbe varimt mich / the service energizes me…”

Rabbi YY Jacobson:

“Yes.”

(couldn’t understand it all from tape)

Reb Zalman:

“The shtickele / excerpt that I saw today that really got to me was sur mera va’aseh tov / shun evil and do good. Vos patshkes du mit der blotte / what dirties you with the mud. Blotte dries du dahin driest du aher bleib es blotte / mud, if you turn this way or that remains mud. He’s quoting the chidushei RI”M / Reb Yitzchak Meir Alter; In the time that you’re patshking / getting dirty with the blotte / mud you can better go and do machroises / business of pninin / pearls [i.e. teshuvah b’simchah] for the Ribbono shel Oilam.”

“I’m worn out now and tired of talking. Give it over to your brother. If it turns out [that you will send people my way, good].”

Rabbi YY Jacobson:

“Can I make another suggestion in this light? I wrote it to you in the past and you said you would think about it.”

Reb Zalman:

“About the Yiddish, I’ve been thinking about what I could write that would..”

Rabbi YY Jacobson:

“Maybe that’s a way to infiltrate and effect what you’re doing in a way that’s not that abrasive and won’t create opposition.”

Reb Zalman:

“I want to tell you something, Hollander isn’t going to shweigen / keep quiet if anything comes with my name.”

Rabbi YY Jacobson:

“Big deal.”

Reb Zalman:

“Nu, I’ll tell you what”

Rabbi YY Jacobson:

“Hollander is entitled to his opinion. I’m very, very makpid / vigilant for absolute diversity and not for a newspaper to be capped for any particular tribe or culture. This week I have a very, very left wing article to the extreme and I’ll get twenty letters condemning me and demanding a cherem / excommunication for this writer. But that’s how it is.”

Reb Zalman:

“All right. If you have baruch Hashem / thank God a thick enough skin, I’ll sit down at the machine some day and I’ll write out something about vos is gevorren von unser cholem / what’s become of our dream..”

Rabbi YY Jacobson:

“That’s great. And maybe even start some plan of introducing, through words, some kind of paradigm shift. You have the readers, most of Chabad leadership, many Chabad shluchim, Chassidim from other groups and others, people from YU Rosh Yeshivas like Norman Lamm or Richard Joel, and people like Eli Wiesel and Ben Foxman (?) that all read the Algemeiner. This is their link to Yiddish. I think maybe you, with your special chushim / sensitivities and talents can utilize it as a vehicle and as a platform in not such a threatening way, introducing paradigms and shifts of consciousness that then teachers and rabbis and leaders can introduce in their curriculums.”

Reb Zalman:

“Let me ask you a question. Do you remember, I think I sent you a copy of the Dream Assembly? There’s one story there that’s called “A Tzaddik in Search of a Script for our Time“. I’m going to try to re-render this one into Yiddish. It begins with a hatovas cholem / prayer that the dream should be for the good, and let me see what happens. Because it’s very close [to other things, you may be familiar …] Do you remember, Reb Nachman has some dreams. Did you ever read the Bratslaver’s dreams? So it fits into that genre. Let me try and write one of these stories and then see what happens. If it feels right, it really talks about the break through for paradigm shift.”

Rabbi YY Jacobson:

“It’s excellent. The title I love: vos is gesehen mit unser cholem. It’s a great title. The fact that some people will be upset, that’s always, kach hi darko shel olam / this is the way it always is.”

Reb Zalman:

“OK. Now give me a brocho / blessing for gesund / health and for sitzfleish / perseverance and I’ll be glad to do that.”

Rabbi YY Jacobson:

“We want to have you around for noch tsentliche yahre / many more decades, we’re not ready to say good-bye yet. Even though I hear on your tapes that you prepared your tsavoa / will and your telling your talmidim / student how to split up your yerushe / possessions. I don’t buy into that. We want you around for dozens of years.”

Reb Zalman:

“No I tell you, a bissel darf man ueberlassen / one should leave over a little bit for Ribbono shel Olam / master of the world. But I’ll tell you, I’ll do my part with the writing and you do your part with finding a few people who are shayach / good candidates to be able to create a little bit of renewal of chassidus. Sei mir gesund und shtark Reb Yosef Yitzchak, gebensht sollst Du sein / Please take care of yourself for me Reb Yosef Yitzchak, may you be blessed.”

Rabbi YY Jacobson:

“We’ll keep in touch Reb Zalman. I thank you so much for your time, your insight and for your inspiration.”

Reb Zalman:

“Omein!”

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